So lesbianism is gross?

[waterspyder]

And so I had to scratch my last lover off of the list. Turns out he thinks lesbianism is repulsive. I'm wondering how I missed that discussion earlier. In any case, that's enough to disqualify him regardless of if I ever intended to share a girl with him or not. Silly boys.

Comments

[mmmelt.livejournal.com]

He's definitely in a minority. Lesbianism is most men's number one fantasy. Of course the fantasy usually involves said lesbians becoming attracted to the dreamer. It allows a man to objectively approve of his own feminine qualities at the same time as eliminating the competitive bullshit that most women thrust on a guy. Many insecure women fear their mate will wander off with the first skirt that passes and so constantly force the man to lie about only being attracted to them only. In the fantasy the guy can openingly acknowledge that he's hot for both of them. Besides, what he's unwilling or inadequate for providing to them they can help provide to each other. That's the generalization anyway, and it's only a dream.

A lot of people fall into warped reductionist logic. Life is "good" => sex between a man and a woman may produce another life => sex that does not produce a baby is "bad" => lesbianism is "bad." Eh? I can see in a tiny isolated tribe how the societal hope might be that women get knocked up early and often to perpetuate their race but even then why not allow the women to enjoy each others company afterward, or during? Would rape be considered good? Shouldn't fundamentalists be fucking constantly with everyone of the opposite sex that they can find if they believe so firmly in life? If over-population and dwindling resources are serious problems than shouldn't a gay lifestyle be considered a benefit to the human race? Shouldn't a gay person who works tirelesly to benefit those around them with out leaving another mouth to feed be considered a hero?

I could go on and on but you already understand everything I have to say. Why are some people so sure that their way is the one and only way to live? 'Course I do the same thing. Why can't everyone be bi? I can understand straights, I can understand gays, but I just don't feel exclusively either way.

The way most people react to other play is similar. I can understand their disgust, I just don't feel that way. I have my limits though. I like to explore the edges but you should be careful if you do. I've met some real psychopaths. Watch out. If you play you'll probably cross paths with one someday. You can tell them by their flat intonation when they're talking about extreme things. They truly do not care about you and can be dangerous. One guy wanted me to be his slave which sounded fun, but then he also wanted me to abandon everything and tell no one where I was going to live in his dungeon in the states. Uh, no. Another talked about the fun we could have torturing his wife by tieing her up (teehee), spanking her bum (kinky), burning her with cigarettes (huh?), and breaking her ribs(!). They weren't joking. I lost contact with them when I started asking questions. Some subs honestly consent to real damage, even cannabilism or snuff but that doesn't make it any less gross.

I've met a lot of people who were far weirder than me. I try not to judge if they're generally not harmful. A good example is a friend who is a pedophile. I can say what I want to him but he's not going to change. He has an adult boyfriend who keeps him happy, and I keep my eyes and ears open.

I think this is where an active fantasy life can be healthy. That's double edged though in that it can make a person obcess and fixate on a kink. That might make a person seek out a real life release, but most often it gives release to a desire that would otherwise be acted on.

Blah, blah, blah. I'm certainly running on at the fingers. You must think I'm a freak. Oh yeah, I am, I forgot ;)

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> It allows a man to objectively approve of his own feminine qualities at
> the same time as eliminating the competitive bullshit that most women
> thrust on a guy. Many insecure women fear their mate will wander off
> with the first skirt that passes and so constantly force the man to lie
> about only being attracted to them only. In the fantasy the guy can
> openingly acknowledge that he's hot for both of them.

So... the generalization is that men find lesbians hot because they're such spineless wimps they can be "forced" to lie to their girlfriend/wife, who won't accept that they might be attracted to other people[1]?

I haven't met anyone with such a low opinion of either men or women since I tuned out the "Women rule the world!" idiot at a party last year. What does it take for people to grow a fucking spine?
---
[1] Which is really rather similar to what waterspyder is understandably complaining about in her post.

[mmmelt.livejournal.com]

Yay, I win the "low opinion of either men or women" contest! I knew that I thought all people are pathetic but I didn't have the self esteem to imagine that I'd be the biggest idiot out there. Mom would be so proud .

I still believe what I wrote. I wasn't responding to waterspyder so much as just spouting to kill time. I acknowledge that I could be completely wrong but with such a vague generalization it's doubtlessly still true in many cases. Of course you've probably tuned out by now so the debate is pointless.

I can't believe that you've never seen some married guy sneaking a peek at a hottie so that his wife doesn't catch him. Yeah, there's also the aspect of not wanting to offend the hottie but that's not my rant. All people put on displays for all other people pretty much all of the time. Haven't you noticed, or do you spend all your time flaming strangers? I'm not trying to paint the women as shrews or the men as spineless wimps, both are just trying to play a role for pair bonding. I think the lesbian (bi)fantasy has many good elements for countering "normal" expectations. The idea that there is norm is the biggest fantasy of all.

I'm bored. Wanna play some more ;)

[torrain.livejournal.com]

> Yay, I win the "low opinion of either men or women" contest! I
> knew that I thought all people are pathetic but I didn't have
> the self esteem to imagine that I'd be the biggest idiot out
> there. Mom would be so proud .

*sigh* Dude, "I haven't met anyone with such a low opinion since the bint" means "I haven't met anyone with such a low opinion since the bint". You included. I'm questioning your assertion of the applicability of such a generalization and observing how uncommon it is in my experience, not accusing you of adhering to it. You described it in a neutral third-party Lloyd-ish kind of way, rather than implying it was something you actually believed in.

> I still believe what I wrote.

Thanks for clearing that up.

> I wasn't responding to waterspyder so much as just spouting to
> kill time. I acknowledge that I could be completely wrong but
> with such a vague generalization it's doubtlessly still true in
> many cases.

Of course. There are seven billion people on the planet. Any vague assertion describing some existing form of socially acceptable behaviour can be found in many cases with that size pool to draw from.

> Of course you've probably tuned out by now so the debate is pointless.

I haven't tuned out yet. However, I'm not sure there's a debate.

> I can't believe that you've never seen some married guy
> sneaking a peek at a hottie so that his wife doesn't catch him.

Haven't, actually.

I can't believe you've never seen some couple comparing notes on who they think is cute--and not in a "Yeah, we could invite her for a threesome" sense, but in a "Oh, is that who you think is hot this month? Cool. You know, you're cute when you're leching after people." sense.

Mind you, I'm not making the generalization that all people behave this way; I'm merely saying that I believe a generalization which asserts they all behave as you describe is inaccurate, and insulting to a great many people (working on the theory that accusations of being manipulative, demanding lies, and refusing to accept responsibility are insulting).

> Yeah, there's also the aspect of not wanting to offend the hottie
> but that's not my rant. All people put on displays for all
> other people pretty much all of the time. Haven't you noticed,

I've noticed. I think it's a tangent to the question of people sulking at their partners for having normal desires, or people accomodating the whining because being honest is too much like work.

> or do you spend all your time flaming strangers?

*raised eyebrow* Do you consider ad hominem observations to have a place in debate, or are you just taking cheap shots because, as you say below, you're bored?

> I'm not trying to paint the women as shrews or the men as
> spineless wimps, both are just trying to play a role for pair
> bonding.

*shrug* Suit yourself. I apparently have a harsher definition of shrew or wimp than you do; I believe that if you're (generic you) demanding that your partner deny normal and harmless parts of being a functioning human being, or staying in a situation where you're allowing other people to dictate that you engage in morally questionable actions for the priviledge of putting up with their histrionics, you do qualify.

Claiming to be playing a role does not excuse one's actions or laziness in this regard.

> I think the lesbian (bi)fantasy has many good elements for
> countering "normal" expectations.

I actually think it's common enough that it qualifies as a normal expectation. Not a universal one, certainly, but quite possibly normal.

> The idea that there is norm is the biggest fantasy of all.

Well, given that the norm is a social construct, and that you can argue that any social construct is a fantasy... *shrug*

> I'm bored. Wanna play some more ;)

I'm game for discussing. If you want to try that instead of assuming I'm launching a personal attack, go ahead. But if the idea of that bores you, I'll understand.

[mmmelt.livejournal.com]

ah, good.

I did misread your text and thought you were calling me a spineless wimp and the biggest idiot ever. I didn't take it too personally and was attempting to joke and be sarcastic a bit in response. That type of thing doesn't come through well when writing, even with the addition of a happy face ;). Reading back on my own text I realized that I was spouting in *AIR OF AUTHORITY* tone, talking about vague social stuff with guessed stats, AKA "crap." I do swallow my own crap, though, so I was most edging trying to re-explain myself with the thought in my own deluded mind that you were poised to ignore me.

You do wanna play! Cool.

I think it's interesting that you seem to find couples comparing notes as relatively normal

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ah, good. <defences down>

I did misread your text and thought you were calling me a spineless wimp and the biggest idiot ever. I didn't take it too personally and was attempting to joke and be sarcastic a bit in response. That type of thing doesn't come through well when writing, even with the addition of a happy face ;). Reading back on my own text I realized that I was spouting in *AIR OF AUTHORITY* tone, talking about vague social stuff with guessed stats, AKA "crap." I do swallow my own crap, though, so I was most edging trying to re-explain myself with the thought in my own deluded mind that you were poised to ignore me.

You do wanna play! Cool.

I think it's interesting that you seem to find couples comparing notes as relatively normal <you didn't actually say this so stop me if I'm putting the wrong words in your mouth> I think it's a relatively rare yet beautiful thing. I know, perhaps, a larger percentage of older couples which skews my perception. Sexual attitudes have become more open over the past few decades and people tend to become more conservative with age regardless of their starting point of liberalism <yes, voice of authority, unproven stats, but...>.

Do you think that an average coupled hetero person in Ottawa between the age of, say 20 to 70, would make mention of someone they found particularly attractive to their partner? Are there factors or sub-groups you think are important. Just curious, you're opinion stands, don't expect rebuttal.

My personal thought is no. I think couples 20 to 25 may not, on average, feel secure enough to open up, though many would, some of which would just be too insensitive to consider effects. Couples 25 to 35 would, in my mind, more often than not talk openingly because they've had time to feel secure in their relationship and establish good communication. Beyond 35 I've seen couples grow complacent and aloof. There can be a growing tension and fear of abandonment since they feel the spark is gone. Pointing out interest in another can be a real threat. Besides, they grew up in a time where the sexual revolution may have started but most people actually lived a stunted lifstyle where one did not discuss personal issues. Cultural heritage is important, but I don't know enough to starting casting stereotypes.