I was going through a list of the top 100 science fiction books of the 20th Century, and realized that I've read many of them, or other works by the authors on the list and I started to wonder.

What is it about Science Fiction that makes it so stigmatized?

All of the books on that list are thought-provoking. Many are written with a finesse that is completely lost on the contemporary serial novelist. Is there a ton of science fiction out there that I haven't read that is abyssmally bad? Is the average reader incapable of fathoming the concepts that are presented? What is it that makes sci-fi so inaccessible?

From: [identity profile] waterspyder.livejournal.com


But there are Sci Fi writers like Vonnegut (60s to 90s), Dick (60s to 80s), L'Engle (60s to 80s), and Gibson (70s to present) who have more of a cult following than anything (and Dick's work more because of the drugs than the moral).

I don't fully get it.

From: [identity profile] corradus.livejournal.com


Hmm. I wonder.

I wonder if;

1) the science fiction genre as a whole hasn't been eclipsed by it's film cousins - ie: I wonder whether or not when people think of sci fi as a general genre of story telling they don't automatically default to what's on TV or film (since it's easier to relate to in many ways).

Since most of the DEMONSTRABLE sci fi geeks tend to be spawned from the visual media I wonder if the print part of the genre is being made to answer for what the film part does and spawns.

While other genres do have their geeks, (I hate that word) I think sci-fi's are more over the top - more flashy and noticeable. They draw more fire and it's 'more okay' to put them down openly. Thus I wonder if people make that association.

From: [identity profile] twiin.livejournal.com


I think the science fiction community is deliberately insular. I mentioned Chrichton above; when he wrote The Andromeda Strain, he was essentially laughed out of the sci-fi community and pushed out of sci-fi bookstores by the sci-fi author-elite because he didn't go to cons, hang out with fans, he didn't write comics, etc. It was only many, many years later (after jurassic park, iirc) that the sci-fi bookwriting community as a whole begged forgiveness.

Sci-fi doesn't go out of its way to explain itself to the audience. There is so much assumed knowledge when it comes to sci-fi that isn't present in other genres. Picking up a Bear/Benford/Pohl book and you don't know what a Dyson Sphere is? You'll be lost by the end of the third chapter.

In my experience, the sci-fi crowd views themselves as a community, rather than a genre, and they're not.

There's mention above of the libraries not stocking sci-fi during the 80s, but that wasn't the case in my experience. I did all my reading through libraries, and during the 80s, sci-fi was the only genre I read. I also don't agree that sci-fi doesn't get academic or public recognition; I see documentaries pushed out on a regular basis about the impact that sci-fi has had on space technology, or how star trek changed the world, or how the cell phone was inspired by Asimov, or what-have-you. I don't see documentaries about how Dune or The Gunslinger affected mass culture.

There's also the fact that, more than any other genre, sci-fi is a boys club -- and books are consumed by women in a higher proportion than television, movies, or any other creative medium.

Foundation is quite possibly the greatest sci-fi series ever written, but the women in it are generally treated like property, or idiots, and the same is true of most books from golden age authors. 'Stranger in a Strange Land' is the big groundbreaking book in sci-fi for gender roles, but it's still a book which claims most rape victims were kinda asking for it.

Sci-fi is my favourite genre, but I don't think sci-fi is stigmatized. I think it's insular, navel-gazing, and hasn't climbed out of the 40s, because the 40s were so good to it. The last generation of popular sci-fi writers (Stephenson, etc) are the only ones who've started pushing character development to new places within the genre.

From: [identity profile] corradus.livejournal.com


>>Foundation is quite possibly the greatest sci-fi series ever written, but the women in it are generally treated like property, or idiots, and the same is true of most books from golden age authors. 'Stranger in a Strange Land' is the big groundbreaking book in sci-fi for gender roles, but it's still a book which claims most rape victims were kinda asking for it.<<

That makes a lot of sense. Sci-Fi is a genre that tells a lot of its story through 'toys', and as Waterspyder and I have opined at each other on numerous occasions gadgetry is not what TENDS to interest ladies.

When one gender is left to its own devices in literature for too long it tends to get funny ideas about the nature of the other gender. Not to mention that in AC Clarke, Asimov, Bradbury and Heinlein's heyday it was still very much a 'Man's World'.

I know in my favorite book - Starship Troopers - women are placed upon pedestals, and pretty much left there. It's an older attitude that seeks to bombard women with the status of jewel in the hopes that all the flattery will outweigh the rest of male behaviour towards them at the time.

Some good points about insularity of concepts in the book too. Hadn't thought of that.

From: [identity profile] zenten.livejournal.com



There's also the fact that, more than any other genre, sci-fi is a boys club -- and books are consumed by women in a higher proportion than television, movies, or any other creative medium.

Foundation is quite possibly the greatest sci-fi series ever written, but the women in it are generally treated like property, or idiots, and the same is true of most books from golden age authors. 'Stranger in a Strange Land' is the big groundbreaking book in sci-fi for gender roles, but it's still a book which claims most rape victims were kinda asking for it.

Sci-fi is my favourite genre, but I don't think sci-fi is stigmatized. I think it's insular, navel-gazing, and hasn't climbed out of the 40s, because the 40s were so good to it. The last generation of popular sci-fi writers (Stephenson, etc) are the only ones who've started pushing character development to new places within the genre.


I have trouble believing that the foundation series is any more sexist than other books from the 40s and 50s. As to Stranger in a Strange Land, it seems pretty in line with books from it's era.

Claiming that science fiction hasn't climbed out of the 40s by referring to a book series started in the 40s doesn't make sense to me.

From: [identity profile] twiin.livejournal.com


SIASL came out the same year as Catch-22, The Stone Angel, and Thunderball. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Thunderball is the progressive book out of those three, but would still take Thunderball's portrayal of gender roles over SIASL's.

In any case, my point isn't that books were sexist fifty years ago, my point is that sci-fi has not produced the significantly progressive works every other genre has in the last fifty years to explain, provide context for, and replace them.

From: [identity profile] zenten.livejournal.com


I'm sorry, but how the hell is Catch-22 progressive in terms of gender roles?

Stranger in a Strange Land took a sexist character, from a sexist universe, deliberately because most of the readers at the time were sexist and needed someone to identify with, and presented an alternate viewpoint.

As to things not progressing, the fact that something like Hominids can be written without people making much comment shows that it has.

From: [identity profile] twiin.livejournal.com


Catch-22 isn't progressive. Neither is Thunderball. That's my point. I haven't read the Neanderthal books yet, so I can't really comment on them.

What I'm saying is that in my experience, science-fiction alienates female readers (for a variety of reasons) far, far more than any other genre does. Part of it is gender roles. Part of it is technobabble. Part of it is an assumed language, and part of it is the fact there are so few female authors that there aren't a terribly high number of well-developed female characters.

From: [identity profile] zenten.livejournal.com


I'm disagreeing with you on the gender role point. I can see the rest of them, but I was under the impression that most published authors, period, are male.
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