I thought the eeeeeevil Conservatives who eat babies were also the ones that were unhappy because the Liberal government was not doing enough to support the troops?
Anyway. According to Heritage Canada (http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/etiquette/2_e.cfm),
...the flag on the Peace Tower of the Parliament Building at Ottawa is flown at half-mast: on the death of a Lieutenant Governor; on the death of a Canadian Privy Councillor, a Senator, or a Member of the House of Commons; on the death of a person whom it is desired to honour.
In 2002, the government started lowering the flag to half-mast for soldiers in Afghanistan, saying that they qualified under the last criteria.
Neither federal government changed the tradition; one simply felt that the soldiers who died were someone they desired to honour, and the other does not. It is hardly out of line for the provincial government to want to honour the soldiers from their province who died.
Actually, you are incorrect, and so is Heritage Canada.
Traditionally, the Peace Tower flag was ONLY ever lowered for three reasons:
1) Death of a Sitting PM 2) Death of the reigning UK Monarch 3) Rememberance Day (a relatively new one instituted around the time of the Great War)
In the past the Liberal Government has modified things so that they can dip the flag more often. Some see this is crassly political, others do not. Personally I thought it was kinda funny to treat the army like a cousin you wish would leave the family and then when one of them died hold one's hand solemnly over heart and dip the flag - seemed hypocritical to me, I dunno - but then a lot of what the previous Federal Government did with the military was hypocritical.
In any case, as I said in my recent post, what we do to the soldiers that serve, how we treat them while they serve, how we treat their families when they are killed in service (wartime or otherwise) IMO is FAR more important than what we do with the flag - and I think the flag thing is far too much a distraction from this other stuff.
> Actually, you are incorrect, and so is Heritage Canada.
This would probably be a good time to point out, for the sake of clarity, that both my comment and the link are (clearly, I thought) discussing the current situation.
However, I assume you've been able to confirm that at no time before the cut-off date of tradition was the Peace Tower flag lowered to half-mast for any occasion except the three you've listed, and that flying the Peace Tower flag at half-mast in mourning for a foreign Head of State, Head of Government of a Commonwealth country, Head of Mission accredited to Canada who dies in office at Ottawa, or member of the British Royal family all post-dates tradition.
As such, could I trouble you for your reference? I've only been able to find archives going back to 2001; I'm delighted to hear that something more extensive is available.
Sadly I have no website to point you to that would make what has been the tradition before the last Liberal government got a hold of it more concrete.
Talk to citizens - particularly veterans - who remember the days before Chretien took over (and created the Heritage Department if memory serves, I don't recall one being there under Mulroney) and there you will find my references.
I'm sorry, but personal recollection of conversations about personal recollection isn't a reliable citation (which is good, or my citations would directly contradict yours). It doesn't have to be a website, either; I'm sure the Peace Tower flag being lowered tends to get documented somewhere other than online.
If I run across a reliable source, I'll pass it along to you.
Well, granted it won't satisfy any requirements for submitting Doctoral Thesii but it works well enough for me. But hey, don't take my word for it, go and talk to people who have been there yourself. Take a walk down to the local Legion Hall and ask them, or if you're inclined to wait until November, ask one of those vets who sell poppies what the deal is.
Somehow I doubt that something so simple and widely known as the flag-lowering protocols before the Liberal Government got their hands on them would need writing down anywhere (especially in pre-internet prevalence days) so I am not sure you'll find a definitive source for my assertions that is written down - but I wish you luck in this matter.
Actually, there are circumstances in which recollections of recollections might work for a doctoral thesis; but you're right, it's not usually seen as a reliable source of factual information, which is what I'm after.
I am also inclined to be skeptical about anyone--presumably, in this case, your sources--who describes lowering the Peace Tower flag for Remembrance Day to be a "relatively new" tradition compared to lowering it for death of the reigning UK Monarch or the sitting PM, given that the Peace Tower was opened in 1927. If the Peace Tower was opened less than eighty years ago, the tradition of flying its flag at half-mast on Remembrance Day can't exactly be "relatively new" compared to flying it at half-mast on other occasions.
Since the PMs who died in office (Sir John A. MacDonald and Sir John Thompson) did so before the construction of the Peace Tower was even started, it also leaves me skeptical of your sources. If the sitting PM died, I'd expect the flag would be lowered, but it seems to be stretching to call it a tradition when it's not happened yet.
Finally, George V didn't die until 1936, so saying that the tradition of lowering the Peace Tower flag for the death of the reigning UK Monarch is relatively new compared to the tradition of lowering it for Remembrance Day seems inaccurate.
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From:
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Anyway. According to Heritage Canada (http://www.pch.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/etiquette/2_e.cfm), In 2002, the government started lowering the flag to half-mast for soldiers in Afghanistan, saying that they qualified under the last criteria.
Neither federal government changed the tradition; one simply felt that the soldiers who died were someone they desired to honour, and the other does not. It is hardly out of line for the provincial government to want to honour the soldiers from their province who died.
From:
no subject
Traditionally, the Peace Tower flag was ONLY ever lowered for three reasons:
1) Death of a Sitting PM
2) Death of the reigning UK Monarch
3) Rememberance Day (a relatively new one instituted around the time of the Great War)
In the past the Liberal Government has modified things so that they can dip the flag more often. Some see this is crassly political, others do not. Personally I thought it was kinda funny to treat the army like a cousin you wish would leave the family and then when one of them died hold one's hand solemnly over heart and dip the flag - seemed hypocritical to me, I dunno - but then a lot of what the previous Federal Government did with the military was hypocritical.
In any case, as I said in my recent post, what we do to the soldiers that serve, how we treat them while they serve, how we treat their families when they are killed in service (wartime or otherwise) IMO is FAR more important than what we do with the flag - and I think the flag thing is far too much a distraction from this other stuff.
From:
no subject
This would probably be a good time to point out, for the sake of clarity, that both my comment and the link are (clearly, I thought) discussing the current situation.
However, I assume you've been able to confirm that at no time before the cut-off date of tradition was the Peace Tower flag lowered to half-mast for any occasion except the three you've listed, and that flying the Peace Tower flag at half-mast in mourning for a foreign Head of State, Head of Government of a Commonwealth country, Head of Mission accredited to Canada who dies in office at Ottawa, or member of the British Royal family all post-dates tradition.
As such, could I trouble you for your reference? I've only been able to find archives going back to 2001; I'm delighted to hear that something more extensive is available.
From:
no subject
Talk to citizens - particularly veterans - who remember the days before Chretien took over (and created the Heritage Department if memory serves, I don't recall one being there under Mulroney) and there you will find my references.
From:
no subject
If I run across a reliable source, I'll pass it along to you.
From:
no subject
Somehow I doubt that something so simple and widely known as the flag-lowering protocols before the Liberal Government got their hands on them would need writing down anywhere (especially in pre-internet prevalence days) so I am not sure you'll find a definitive source for my assertions that is written down - but I wish you luck in this matter.
From:
no subject
I am also inclined to be skeptical about anyone--presumably, in this case, your sources--who describes lowering the Peace Tower flag for Remembrance Day to be a "relatively new" tradition compared to lowering it for death of the reigning UK Monarch or the sitting PM, given that the Peace Tower was opened in 1927. If the Peace Tower was opened less than eighty years ago, the tradition of flying its flag at half-mast on Remembrance Day can't exactly be "relatively new" compared to flying it at half-mast on other occasions.
Since the PMs who died in office (Sir John A. MacDonald and Sir John Thompson) did so before the construction of the Peace Tower was even started, it also leaves me skeptical of your sources. If the sitting PM died, I'd expect the flag would be lowered, but it seems to be stretching to call it a tradition when it's not happened yet.
Finally, George V didn't die until 1936, so saying that the tradition of lowering the Peace Tower flag for the death of the reigning UK Monarch is relatively new compared to the tradition of lowering it for Remembrance Day seems inaccurate.